Club Road Race Championship 2014-A Proposal

[Keith Mulholland]

Hi Everyone,

After taking on the road running rep post about a year ago, I have been thinking about the current format of the championship. What is readily apparent is that for most of the races we get 10 to 20 members taking part which is a small number compared with the number of adults in the club who pay the EA membership (~300).

It would be good to get more people to races in the Cheshire Grand Prix which is the main inter-club competition throughout the year and also to acknowledge and reward members for taking part in other races in the area.

I wondered what people thought of the following format. For each Cheshire Grand Prix Race those taking part would get 20 points. All other UKA races (including the Staffs Moorlands Summer Series, Forest 5 and Wincle Trout Run) would get 10 points. All Parkruns would get 5 points. The winner at the end of the year would be the person with the highest total.

It may be possible to get Prizes for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place with separate competitions for men and women, though I would have to get committee approval.

As an added extra, I would like to reward the best Harriers (Male and Femaie) in the Cheshire Grand Prix with a prize.

Anyway, let me know what you think, it would be good to get some feedback. Do e-mail me if you want (via the contact page if you haven't got my e-mail address)

Best Wishes,

Keith

[burb]

Thanks Keith, I personally like these suggestions. Do you receive a weekly email of the Harriers who have competed? Or would we need to submit our completed races.

I will post this onto Facebook later on tonight when more people are online.

[Dave Larkin]

Sounds like a good idea.
Bit unsure if you mean it to run as a separate competition alongside the current championship or as part of it. But either way, I think it is good.

[Keith Mulholland]

Hi,

The idea would be to replace the current club championship with the arrangements detailed above. We could try it for a year and see how it goes.

Regards

Keith

[andymc744]

That's a great idea. Would you put a limit on which counties you can race in? Or would there be a limit of the number of races?

[Keith Mulholland]

Hi Andy,

No restriction on where you race. You would just have to tell me! Steve was keen to include fell races that road runners do as well which is probably a good idea.

Regards,

Keith

[Chris Bentley]

Hi Keith,

I like the idea of including some other races beyond the grand prix. However I think there has to be a limit to the number of races which someone could participate in to achieve a balance of participation and speed. Historically the club road champion has been the fastest road runner - based on performance over a representative series of races, though we all know that on occasions another runner has won it if the fastest runner didn't do enough races.

At the moment I think you proposal puts too much emphasis on participation - in theory someone could win the championship by turning up at a parkrun every week but never racing in the grand prix.

It depends where we as a club want to focus our efforts. Is it on the grand prix, or is it on having as many harriers participating in as many races as possible? Personally I think your proposal would sit very well alongside an out a true road championship (focus on speed) but should not replace the current championship (or something close to the current arrangements)

Chris

[BARRY BLYTH]

Maybe you need to recognise both ie best runner over the specified races and have an additional prize/trophy to recognise participation ie pts for extra races.

Barry

[markwalker]

Keith,
Having given this some thought I have come to the conclusion that there is not a good answer
However, some thoughts:
- we would all like to see more harriers at road races, and in particular Cheshire Grand Prix events, but I don't think the club champs is the primary motivation for most people and I am not sure changing the format will make any difference unfortunately.
- I think it would be a shame to completely base a championship on participation. Do we want the club road running champion to be the person who has done the most races, or the person who has performed the best throughout the season?
- personally, I think it is wrong to include fell races in a road racing championship, no matter how many road runners do them.
- similarly I think it is wrong to include Park Run - I believe it is their own philosophy that they are timed efforts rather than races, and they are not on roads...
- you have to be careful not to discourage participation in the leagues that the club competes (e.g. Wincle is regularly the same day as a CGP 5k)

Without getting too heavy, what is the purpose of the championship? Encourage general participation, recognise efforts, attempt to improve Cheshire Grand Prix standing etc?

I don't have a perfect alternative, but the best I have seen at other clubs consisted of 7 best age graded performances over short, medium, long distances from a choice of roughly 20 races, plus any marathon and single parkrun. This allows men and women to compete against each other, young and old etc. and means that we are not just using speed as a judgement of performance. Unfortunately it also probably means James will win everything Age gradings etc. are readily available through Power of 10 and everyone who is EA has an account.

Apologies for the rant!

Cheers,

Mark

[STEVE LOMAS]

As Keith mentioned, and as I have mentioned in the past, I personally would find it most interesting to have a single Club Championship that would help to bring all of the Club’s so-called different sections together. Also, I think we should play to our strengths and just, maybe, go with the flow. By that, I mean that the Club as a whole does have plenty of members that race but it’s just that, some of the time, they’re spread over the many different types of races that we participate in. I.e. local fell, national fell, ultra-distance, road, cross-country, park runs, trail races and sometimes, triathlons.

Amongst these disciplines however, we do take part in certain races in many numbers. Examples of these races are the Wednesday night fell races including, for example, the Rainow 5 Fell race and Boar’s Head Fell race. Then there’s such events as the Wilmslow Half Marathon, Congleton Half Marathon, Wincle Trout Fell race, Cheddleton 10K, Manchester League Cross-country, Stockport 10 Road race, Gawsworth 10K, etc.

These races could form the backbone of an annual series.

Such a varied list of races works very successfully as an annual series for Wilmslow Running Club.

Like yesterday at the Macclesfield Half Marathon, we also have our own races that many members either race in or help to organise in some way.

Like Chris and Mark have said, it’s also my preference that any such Championship should be based on performance and, as an also-ran, I would find it fascinating to see who might come out on top in such a league and there could be much debate about particular’s runners’ strengths on the fells, for example, as opposed to, say, road pedigree - in much the same way as a tennis player, who is good on grass but not so confident on clay.

On the basis of my comments above, I would see some merit in Keith’s proposal of a points' system based on the profile of the varying races but points’ awarded for race performance rather than participation. Keith’s proposal could however, be built in, more as an indirect result of the way the Championship would work - please see my comment on the maximum number of races further down this post.

So perhaps a single, annual, championship, could have the following points’ criteria;

Cheshire Grand Prix Road race plus Wilmslow and Congleton Half Marathons if they're not already included in the GP, plus Cheddleton 10K and Stockport 10 - first Harrier, 20 points and next Harrier, 19 points etc, etc (every runner would receive at least 1 point).

A designated Wednesday night Fell race - 20 points etc.

A designated Saturday or Sunday afternoon ‘fete’ Fell race (e.g. Wincle Trout, Bosley, Mow Cop, Whaley Waltz) plus Gawsworth 10K – 20 points etc.

Manchester League Cross-Country - 20 points etc.

Winter weekend fell races such as Cloud 9, Roaches, Passing Clouds, Windgather - 20 points etc.

The various Hayfield and Kinder Long Fell races, The English Champs Fell races, Christmas Fell Handicap - 20 points etc.

Ultra long distance events such as Bullock Smithy and some abroad (those in the Alps and Pyrenees but which must be designated), 30 points etc.

A successful Bob Graham or Naylor attempt, 30 points. An unsuccessful attempt, 15 points. And for those that offer support, 20 points.

Staffordshire Moorlands’ Thursday night Summer Series plus Wizard 5, Mobberley Round the Runway and the Goyt Valley 10K - 15 points etc.

North Staffordshire Cross-Country League - 15 points etc.

Boxing Day Handicap - 15 points etc.

All other races - 10 points etc.

The only exception to the challenge being performance rather than participation would be for a points’ award (20 points?) to help at our Club’s own annual races.

Perhaps 25 to 30 races should be the maximum number of races to count? Alongside the performance criteria then this amount of events would encourage regular race participation by our members but also, would not allow anyone to over-do it by racing every week of the year.

No runner would be forced to do a minimum amount of a certain discipline, they could choose what they like.

There could be an annual prize for the best man and the best lady runner. What about vets’ prizes? What should any prizes be? Money? Trophy? And a
t-shirt or gift for all runners who complete a minimum number of races, in the same way that Wilmslow RC organise gifts for their runners?

Would or should track races be included? How could they be included?

What about administration and up-keep of the table?

Best regards,
Steve

[burb]

*edit*!

Just out of interest does anybody know how Wilmslow place their runners into Leagues? Perhaps this may encourage more to show up, knowing they could top their league / be promoted etc...

[Nicky Tasker]

Hi Keith

I've been thinking about the club championship table and I wonder if the points could somehow be weighted by your position in the race, so that performance is factored into the results and not just participation.

Using my Stockport 10 results as an example. I had 15 points in the club table and that takes into account my performance against the other female harriers who entered. My gender position in the race was 261/298 so I would have 12% of 15, rounded = 2 points.

Maybe it would be too complicated and too much work. The real answer is to get more people entering and then slower people will automatically get fewer points. Unfortunately I don't know how to make that happen!

[Philip Barnes]

Just a thought: for the fell champs, the points earned were a direct measure of your time as a proportion of the winners time, so if you won the race you hot 1000pts, if you took twice as long as the winner you 500pts, the calculator us easy to set up on excel and has, I think a number of advantages:

1. Your points do go up simply because only a few harriers turn out
2. There is an incentive to go as fast as possible even if you know you can't catch the harrier in front or can't be caught by anyone.
3. Men's points are calculated against winning men's time, women's points against winning women's time, so men and women can compete head to head.

[Daisy Pickles]

I personally feel that the current system is fair, as is the way points are scored.

I do think that some of the more 'popular' races should be included such as the gawsworth 10k (where the winners this year were both our own harriers-yey!) and wilmslow half marathon etc.

You could then have a separate prize for the person who has really dedicated their time and competed in all races. The only difficulty with this would be that you have harriers who have competed in many disciplines and also at a wide range of races, some even further afield, and then you have harriers who have solely focused on the club champs races and participating there. For example, Carl Hannaghan has competed in every single club champs race his year (and this definitely needs to be awarded!) whereas Scott Wilson has competed in 40 races this year and Rob Hasler has competed in 35 races this year (based on results on run britain) which are also significant amounts! So you could have a prize for participation which would need to be decided if this is just on the specified club champs races or over any race.Wherever you're representing the club if you're wearing your harriers yest then I feel this needs to be recognised in some way!

In short I vote:
-Keep the existing points system. Include more 'popular races'.
-Have a separate system for participation (i.e. 1 point for every race). You could have 2 separate participation sheets- 1 for the club champs races and 1 for overall races in the season. I'd be keen to include park runs but you could cap this at a certain number. You could also have a point for volunteering at our organised races as this is definitely participation in some form and we do need volunteers after all!

Great ideas by all though! I can't wait to hear the outcome!

Daisy

[Keith Mulholland]

Hi,

Having talked to a few people over the weekend, I have come up with the following races for next year.

Jan 19 4 Villages Half GP (L)

Feb 2 Alsager 5 (S)

March 9 Trafford 10k (M)

March 23 Wilmslow 1/2 (L)

Apr 16 Chester Spring 5 GP (S)

May (tbd) Buxworth 5 (S)

May 23 Christleton 5k GP (S)

June (tbd)Warrington RR 10k GP (M)

July (tbd) Buxton Carnival 4 (S)

July (tbd) Wizard 5 GP (S)

July (tbd) Meerbrook 15k (L)

Aug (tbd) Birchwood 10k GP (M)

Sep (tbd) Gawsworth 10k (M)

Oct (tbd) Sandbach 10k (M)

Nov (tbd) Langley 7 (M)

Nov (tbd) Cheddleton 10k (M)

Dec (tbd) Stockport 10 (L)

GP=Cheshire Grand Prix

The Macc Half will not be in the Club Championship but will still be a Cheshire Grand Prix race.

As before, the same scoring system will apply (20 points for 1st place, 19 for 2nd etc).

Best 7 races to count, at least one from each category (Short-S, Med-M, Long-L).







Keith