Fell champs updated

[thebunyans]

I've updated the provisional fell champs table up to Duddon...
http://www.mh.k313.com/mh/fell/fellChamps2007.html

I'll put up a Wednesday night one soon (need results from Rainow etc).

[Welsh Harrier (MC)]

Do race organisers get any 'marshall' points, I'm afraid I didn't have a gun with me at Llangynhafal!

[Beneficial Dictator]

Format for scoring for this years Club Fell Champs ( not the summer evening race champs ).
Up to Best 7 positional placings from the list of races available. At least 1 race from each distance category ( Short, Medium & Long ) to be included.
30 points for first Harrier then 29 for second etc... down to minimum of at least 6 points. Beyond your best 7 results you can acquire participation points in any of the other available races - 4 points for each race completion.
If you organise a champs race you can claim 20 points, if you marshall you can claim 10 points. You may claim organiser or marshall points only twice in a year, these do not count as positional results, they are bonus participational.

All the above totals will decide the Club Open Champion for which a new this year trophy will be awarded.

The Club Trophy Champion ( the existing trophy ) will be awarded to the best age handicap corrected total. Correction figures will be as used in 05 & 06 & will only be applied to the up to 7 positional results. Participational & marshalling etc.. points will still count toward the total.

Don't forget the scoring in club champs is actually quite clever. Although you only score positionally in up to 7 races if you do more for positional points etc... you potentially prevent your competitors scoring so highly positionally.

So to answer the previous post from Welsh Harrier, Yes as an organiser you can have 20 positional points which is a good reward for the effort you have put in to our sport.

[thebunyans]

What about separate points for the ladies (as I started in the provisional table...)? Means the ladies results are not influenced by how many men turn up.

[Welsh Harrier (MC)]

Beneficial Dictator: 'So to answer the previous post from Welsh Harrier, Yes as an organiser you can have 20 positional points'

Thanks Boss!

[Beneficial Dictator]

Thanks John, knew I would forget something. Yes, seperate champs & points for Ladies, that way the Open Club Championship ( for which there is only one trophy ) is open to both Male & Female members on an equal standing.

[Philip Barnes]

Am I being stupid?? Does this mean that if only one woman turns up for a race, that 30 pts will automatically be awarded? surely all our results are influened by how many people turn up? Maybe I have misunderstood how it will work, but it seems that the result has already been decided!

[Stephen Watts]

Beneficial Dictator: 'So to answer the previous post from Welsh Harrier, Yes as an organiser you can have 20 positional points'

My head is beginning to hurt a little as well. To be accurate, I think BD is allowing 20 participation points, and bonus ones at that, not 20 positional points, which are obviously different. He means that they don't count as one of your 7 best races.

However, could BD clarify claiming twice a year. I think he means that anyone can claim one lot of organisers points and one marshalling points, not two of each or two of one?

With reference to the ladies' points scoring, I think having ladies' points for the ladies trophy is a good idea, but it does not work for the so called open trophy. Having different points scoring systems for different people for the same trophy does not work. As I have said its making my head hurt trying to understand how it will work. I assume that if BD has not made a mistake, the men are eligible to win the ladies’ trophy this year?

[Beneficial Dictator]

Yes, A mistake in my original reply to Welsh Harrier - it should have read 20 participational points as SWatt has subsequently pointed out.
To further clarify the availablity of these extra participational points you can claim once as an Organiser in each year & up to twice as a marshall if you give up your run. Only a total of 2 claims in a season. This is clearly meant to encourage members to give up a run or two & step forward to do there bit & help the club.
To answer Phil Barnes post, Yes first lady will be 30 points. It's not there fault if they are the only lady in attendance. If we do not have seperate champs then we are not going to encourage greater female participation, something I am keen to do.
Realistically, if we used the old champs formula where ladies were mixed in with the men, a reasonably good male runner will finish a race in front of an elite lady. That is not a fair comparison of performance, however we have used it for several years as there were very few ladies in the club fell racing. I am hopeful having a seperate champs will encourage greater ladies involvement. Certainly I have spoken with most of our ladies ( there are several potential lady fell runners in the Wed & Thurs night groups ) & it seems to be what they want.
Then if the scoring for ladies & mens champs works on the same scale it allows the Open Champion to be from either sex. Think about it, in reality for a lady to win the Open Champs she would have to do well in 7 races ( it is my prediction that there will be several men in the club who will achieve this feat in 07 ), do a few races besides and probably marshall at least once as well. All to beat our fastest & most prolific racing men. If she did this then she would deserve to win.
All scoring systems have there advantages & disadvantages & I have done my best to come up with an interesting champs that rewards good performance both outright & for age along with participation both racing & marshalling / organising. It seems to have been succesful in the last few years however I will continue to try & improve the formula. What we must do this year is get the age handicaping visible on a table on the website.

Thanks to everyone for your patience & please don't wind me up about this I already have plenty to do.

Not about for the next 2 weeks going rock climbing in the Dolomites back out running on Wed 4th July.

[thebunyans]

I think the system as outlined by BenDic is a reasonable compromise.

A debatable improvement would be to score points as a percentage of the winners time or average of top n runners etc. If this was done separately for ladies and men at each race, then a comparison between the two champions to determine the "open" champion might be more fair.

It would mean every second counts, and good individual performances on the day are rewarded irrespective of how many harriers turned out.

However this would then negate one of BenDic's aims to get people to race at English/British champs and perhaps support more classic races as you wouldn't get higher points if fewer harriers were in attendance.

Another disadvantage is that it would also be more time consuming to maintain the tables...

So whatever you do, you can't satisfy all the ideals.

[BARRY BLYTH]

Another option is to use a female factor similar to the age factor. Off the top of my head there is ca 10% difference in male/female times for individuals at the same level (look at world/UK records). Could use this factor as well as the age factor to adjust female points upwards. Better to use actual race time comparisons than relativre Macc Harrier positions but would involve a bit of "spreadsheet" workings. I'd be happy to have a go but I would need to know all actual race times.

Barry

[Welsh Harrier (MC)]

BD's comment was: 'Then if the scoring for ladies & mens champs works on the same scale it allows the Open Champion to be from either carrots.'

Whatever happened to turnips?

[Beneficial Dictator]

My personal preference is for Carrots ( just ask Janet ! ). Plenty of Vitamin C & good for the eyesight.
That said Mr. Turnip deserves respect as a wise old fell running guru. Where is he of late ?.
Perhaps he is currently rooted to a particularly comfortable well composted spot. Perhaps he is having a roasting summer somewhere, possibly on Holiday.
Whatever & wherever, it would be good to hear from him.

[Nancy]

The fell champs and wed night fell champs tables have been updated.