Proposed Club Fell Champs Races 08.

[Beneficial Dictator]

As always its difficult to come up with a spread of races throughout the year. This year I have avoided Brit & Eng Champs races as they are becoming very overcrowded entry wise. A few members are ( or are considering ) specifically targeting them though.
Full details for races are in FRA Calendar which is on the FRA website.
S = Short. M = Medium. L = Long.

Sun 13th Jan. Lambs Longer Leg. Hayfield. S. Pre Ent.
Sun 3rd Feb. Long Mynd Valleys. Shropshire. M.
Sat 9th Feb. Wadsworth Trog. Calder Valley. L. Pre Ent.
Sun 2nd March. Cloud 9. Congleton. M. ( Date changed from original entry - my mistake ).
Sun 16th March. Lads Leap. Crowden. S.
Sat 19th April. Anniversary Waltz. Lakes. M. Pre Ent.
Sat 10th May. Cressbrook Crawl. Buxton. M.
Sat 31st May. Wincle Trout. S. Pre Ent.
Sun 15th June. Kinder Trog. Hayfield. L.
Sun 27th July. Gritstone Tryal. Roaches area. L. Navigation Event. Advise Pre Ent.
Sat 9th Aug. Teggs Nose. M.
Sun 14th Sept. D+W Mini MM. Peak. L. Navigation Event. Pre Ent.
Sat 20th Sept. Lantern Pike. Hayfield. S.
Sun 26th Oct. Passing Clouds. Roaches Area. M.
Sun 9th Nov. Roaches. L.
Sun 7th Dec. Gravy Pud 5. Tintwistle. Nr. Glossop. S.

Format as previous recent years. Best 7 results count for positional points, at least 1 race at each length category req'd. Any other race from the list completed ( beyond the 7 above scores ) scores 4 points for participation.
Marshalling / organisers points as previous year.

Any comments anyone ?
Cheers Craig.

[Philip Barnes]

Firstly, many thanks for doing this, it is appreciated. Are you asking for comments because it is possible to make changes?
If so, I would say that it seems heavily weighted to very local races (possibly because of some comments last year). The Lakes do seem under-represented though. Helvellyn is good out-and-back, and I will definitely be doing Sedbergh again this year and it would be good to see the club attacking it mob handed.
Thanks again.

[phil cheek]

I agree with Phil B.It probably makes sense to have local short races,why travel for hours to run for minutes,but some more "classic" longswould be good.Eg pick whichever of Wasdale or Ennerdale isn`t in the English Champs.
phil

[Justin Gutmann]

Many thanks for doing this. Do not feel it is a thankless task. I haven't checked yet but hope when you were doing it that it meshes with the road running champs...

You can't win on the local versus away issue. I would prefer a bit more travelling to some of the classics (I agree with Phil C though about avoiding the nationals - I think entry to those should be a separate issue).

I'm happy with this for this year even though it does seem a bit unadventurous after last year...

Justin

[Philip Barnes]

Of course, having all the races so local also means I have NO chance of scoring BIG points, only possible because large number of fell runners seem to think that Paddys Pole is Ireland!!!!!!

[Beneficial Dictator]

Thanks for the already useful feedback, lets have some more with definite suggestions. We can change things its our champs !.
Its never a thankless task but of course like anyone I do get things wrong sometimes.
I have not checked if there is any clashing with the club road champs as so few people actively compete in both. Further thats why we have so many races available in our fell champs right throughout the year.
I also try to avoid Mountain Marathon weekends & don't have too many races around mid June when Bob Grahams etc.. are being run. I also try to avoid too many races in the school hols period when many folk are on hols.
I have kept the champs predominantly local but always try to include at least one M or L Lakes race & similarly one somewhere in the N Pennines / Yorkshire. This year we have Wadsworth Trog & Anniversary Waltz, both in my opinion quality races that have been well supported by club members in recent past years. As to inclusion of a Lakes Long or Superlong race well I included Ennerdale in our champs back in 06 ( when it was an Eng Champs counter ) & only 2 club members ran - Mark Hartell & myself. Wasdale is awkward to get to for the day or even weekend & has never been well supported by the club. Both races also have very fierce early cut off times that several of our active but slower membersw would struggle to make. I only just made it at Ennerdale myself in perfect some would suggest slighty hot conditions. The Borrowdale race has featured in the champs a couple of times in recent years & so has 3 Shires & I am resting both this year ( Borrowdale is also Eng & Brit champs ). I would like to put Bens of Jura in the champs one year & organise a club holiday long weekend of it. What do people think of that as an idea?.
Maybe to encourage members to do other races we should award some club champs participation points for completion of any race in the FRA calendar. That would make compiling the club champs points even more complicated than currently though. I get a lot of stick that folk don't understand the current scoring !.
All in all, Its a tough job selecting races but someone has to do it.
I look forward to further comment.
Cheers. Craig.

[BARRY BLYTH]

There are a some off road "muddy" races coming up Jan/Feb which are a bit flattish (except for Alton Towers) but not generally well attended by Fell Runners!

Edale Skyline is always challenging but conficts with Wincle Trout and shouldn't (this year) have entry problems. Duddon is a tough, scenic race 31st May, Phil B's favorite and no confict. "Enjoyed" the Anniversary Waltz.

As I recall there was some debate last year on "how many" races. At present 16 are planned.

I would add my appreciation to the others Craig for your efforts.

Barry

[BARRY BLYTH]

Just noticed Craig that Cloud 9 is 2nd March (not 9th).

[Colin Ardron]

"Edale Skyline is always challenging but conficts with Wincle Trout"

Barry you mean Duddon don't you?

As regards the choice of races, I think as a club champs we should be encouraging "mass" participation of as many club members as poss. A predominance of local races will probably go some way to achieving that.
However I do like the idea of a club weekend away at one of the classic longs be it in the Lakes, Scotland or that under used principality - Wales. (note I said like the idea!).
Interestingly, back in the dim and distant eighties the Wasdale, Ennerdale and Borrowdale were all relatively well attended by club members. What has changed?

[Andy Skelhorn]

Thanks for all your hard work on this one Craig.

By way of also throwing my oar in: One more Lakes or even Snowdonia Classic would be appreciated, and I very much like the idea of a long weekend in sunny Scotland.

[Justin Gutmann]

Appreciate your long note Craig. I forgot to say that I know those of us who did it really enjoyed the Holme Moss outing in July last year (albeit in atrocious conditions) and I am sure other members would enjoy it too - a hard 16 miles but in magnificint and close by scenery. I would also plead for more North Wales runs as great area and very accessible - Cader Idris would be my fave - I have access to a large cottage close by the Rhynogs near Dogellau with views over Cader (£5 pppn). I, too would favour a weekend away in Scotland...or anywhere.

Justin

[longerisbetter]

Suggestion of a club trip to Jura is a brilliant one. I know a contact we can use to get a private hire boat across - either to the end of the tarmac road or to Craigshouse. If we get 10 people or so it costs less than the ferry, is more fun than the ferry, saves a load of time and gives us the option of going through the Corryvrekan whirlpool and around the back of Scarba. e did it about 3 years ago and it was ace!!

I DO think Duddon is a classic in the Lakes and would like it included in the Champs as often as possible - it's a little less rugged than a Borrowdale or Wasdale plus it has the 10 mile option so its perhaps a bitmore suited to club weekend away with family and newbies etc.

From a social point of view, the campsite is nice, its earlier than the worst of the midges and the local pub has music on all evening plus fine ales. Hard to go wrong really!!

[Raph and Barbara]

Hi Craig,

Thanks for the opportunity to comment. I'm unlikely to be a contender but I hope you'll allow my comments. I feel that the club should encourage participation in the highest appropriate level of competition (whether track, road, X-country or fell running) and should recognise achievement at this level when deciding who the club champion is. I appreciate that the British & English Championship races are very competitive both to enter and run but if some members are prepared to take on the challenge the best performer should surely be recognised as the best all round fell runner in the club? If the club is not going to be represented in the British & English Championships then other criteria could be used to select the races most likely to allow identification of the club champion fell runner.

While I'm on the subject perhaps the club should adopt a similar approach when deciding the road and X-country champion, ie, decide which level of competition we're going to participate in, eg, Cheshire road racing championships, Manchester Area X-country league, etc, and rather than use separate club criteria, use performance in these competitions to determine the club champion. I guess it doesn't really make much difference but it does seem rather odd if the best performing Macclesfield runners in county, regional or national competition are not recognised as the Macclesfield Harriers Club Champions.

Just a thought (that might help resolve this perennial topic) - cheers aye,

Raph

[Beneficial Dictator]

Raph, good to see you on the forum & you make many good points.

In the last few years the club champs has rewarded participation to a degree. Further until this year I included some of the English champs races to encourage members to compete in them. This year the FRA committee are suggesting that clubs should consider avoiding club champs at Eng champs races because of overcrowding. I have done this but somewhat reluctantly.
Fell running is just getting more popular & people are running to later ages. In my opinion this overcrowding will just be worse now the FRA calendar is freely available on the web. Fell races are often very good value & uncomplicated compared to road & x country races - just turn up, pay a few quid & run. Bliss. We the fell running community have made a rod for our own back because we are so friendly, open & uncomplicated.

We all know who the best & fastest runners in the club are & I believe that they are rewarded enough - winning races etc... our club champs are intended to be a balance of ability for age & reward participation.

Now I would love it Raph if you would do the English champs races. If you did with Barry Blyth, Martin Cortvriend, Geoff Petengell ( who turns 50 very soon ) John Amies ( if I can get him to rejoin the club, currently only a Congleton Harrier ) & any other good age 50 plus runners in the club. My reason - we would do well as a club in the English V50 team champs !.

I have already discussed this with Barry & Martin & John, just haven't had chance to speak to you. This could also apply to British champs. Believe me if as a club we could motivate folk we could do well as few clubs are really organised enough to make sure they get the folk out. I would suggest our performance of getting 4 teams out at the Brit Fell relays in 07 as a good example of what is possible. No other running club had more teams out than us. We just need to raise the quality of our teams now - its slowly happening in my opinion. There are several established club members who struggled to get in last year due to faster relative newcomers taking team places ( myself included ) - do I really mind though ?. No, of course not, I just want to see the club do better & am proud to be a member.

Maybe got off the original point but with my Club Chairmans hat on we can only take the club where its membership want to take it. So more comments please.

I can only suggest what individuals do but we are a very diverse group. Some favour the Montrail long race series, some Mountain Marathons, some fell running rather than out & out racing.

Cheers for now. Craig.

PS. Who is forum poster longerisbetter, I guess Mark Hartell, but unless we append real names members do not know who is making comment. can we do anything about this web site master?.

[geofpet1]

First of all, going back to one of Craig's posts earlier up on this thread;
'Wasdale has never been well suported by the club'. This is not true as in the late 80s and early 90s, it was. Certainly it was in 1989 as the results show 11 Macc arriers at the start with 9 finishers (it was very hot).
The finishing rder was:
Rob Lee 4.26
Phil Cheek 4.44
Geoff Pett 4.51
Pau Driver 4.59
Ron Hird 5.06
Colin Ardron 5.15
Andrew Addis 5.20
Anne Stentiford 5.20
Jim Kelly 6.02
Bob Smith & Mark McDermott DNF

It was a championship race (Ron wouldnt have done it otherwise!)
Secondly, regarding me being 50 soon, please see new thread to that effect!